Curse

Crom The Pale · Dec 07, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traveller

How about they ditch the whole concept of RPG levels as we know it? From what I've been gathering, I think they might do a system like this with their "unlimited levels" approach. Your skills and stats get better if you use them, not with arbitrary attribute speccing.

In general that sounds good however it would require an extremely complicated set of rules to keep people from abusing it.

Any game that I have seen where skills/items improve with use it has been very easy to simply sit in a low area and lvl up the skills/items before moving through the game.

That being said I have seen at least one game that had a very cool method of lvling. You gain EXP for each unique kill, then some miniscule amount for duplicate kills. Skills used to achieve the unique kill lvl up but have no effect(do not lvl up) for repeat kills. This means you constantly had to move to new areas and face new foes to lvl up your char and its skills. Something like this might work for GW2.

wetsparks · Dec 07, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lomi79

20 is enough.
I played war for 2 months and 40 is tooo much for me really it is soo much grind ffs boring as hell.
OR they could do it with no lvls like in Darkfall and that would be epic imo

As I said a few pages ago, high level =/= high amount of grind. Games like WAR and WoW and other MMOs intentionally make it take forever to level up to keep the monthly fee coming in. The level cap could be 5 in an MMO and it would take you a month per level. Since there is no monthly fee for guild wars, there is no reason for them to draw out the leveling process with "grind."

Liberations · Dec 08, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

In general that sounds good however it would require an extremely complicated set of rules to keep people from abusing it.

Any game that I have seen where skills/items improve with use it has been very easy to simply sit in a low area and lvl up the skills/items before moving through the game.

That being said I have seen at least one game that had a very cool method of lvling. You gain EXP for each unique kill, then some miniscule amount for duplicate kills. Skills used to achieve the unique kill lvl up but have no effect(do not lvl up) for repeat kills. This means you constantly had to move to new areas and face new foes to lvl up your char and its skills. Something like this might work for GW2.

That was brilliant.

On a side note: Anet should not try to cater Guild Wars 2 to everybody. I think they did that too much in the original Guild Wars, and that was an underlying core reason why it fell apart. (Don't get me wrong; Guild Wars is still a playable game, but it's nothing compared to what it was.) Anet should focus one type of game, like the groundwork and ideas behind the first game, and not throw in elements from other games like World of Warcraft to appease and satisfy the people who might not like the style of game that Guild Wars is.

I would much rather have a rich storyline in a game than have grind-attained titles and levels whose only purpose is for the player to show off. Even if the game is shorter because of it, I think it's better to have a short and meaningful campaign than a long and 'meh' one.

Guild Wars tried to be an MMO, and at it's core, it was not, at least not completely. Guild Wars is somewhat of an awkward mixture between MMOs and Diablo-esque RPGs done relatively well. One of the problems was appealing to players on either side of the spectrum, as well as appealing to those who were happy with the in-between.

Back to the point: Guild Wars shouldn't focus on things that are meant just to draw in people from other games. They should focus on their own thing and have some integrity for their own work, and then put it out into the market.

Unfortunately, I doubt this will happen: it's all about making money.

DreamWind · Dec 08, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enon

That's why we like GW so much =3

No...people like GW so much because of no monthly fees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

Since there is no monthly fee for guild wars, there is no reason for them to draw out the leveling process with "grind."

There is a perfect reason...because people like and want it.

Liberations · Dec 08, 2008, 01:36 AM // 01:36

If a game is good, I'll play it. If a game keeps being good, I'll continue to play it.
If a game is bad, I won't play it. If a game keeps being bad, I'll continue to not play it.
Simple as that.

Really, I don't care what kind of leveling system they have, as long as its well implemented to fit a fun game that will have a strong story component and that will stand its own over time. A game can be remembered apart from other games. That's all I really ask for in a game like Guild Wars.

KoleAurow 23 · Dec 08, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

[QUOTE=DreamWind;4389270]No...people like GW so much because of no monthly fees.[QUOTE]

This is why you are dumb. Dont get me wrong, the no monthly fees are awesome...But not everyone goes into a store, looking for a new game, and they say to themselves "I want a game that has no monthly fees, that's what makes a game for me"

Like other ppl have said, GW has a very unique and awesome PvP system. And other then that, well GW is unique in ways that says "Skill over happy finger" and a cool 8 skill build system.

We dont play GW for the same reason obviously...lol

Lady Lozza · Dec 08, 2008, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Actually I like GW because there isn't compulsory grind.
I played L2 for a while and I had a love-hate relationship with it. I love character development (such as it is in rpgs) but I hated the fact that if I wanted a new character I'd have to spend a LOT of time doing that "development".

GW is different in that I can change the branch of the development tree I'm on in a jiffy. GW is different in that to have max armour and max weapons I don't need to kill x monster 500 times till it drops, or be x level in order to do that.

Character development does not require levels. It really, really doesn't. You can have skills and attribute points and health and mana without having levels. Just like you can have 100 levels but have everything capped at lvl20. It seems to me what people don't seem to get is that all that giving players higher levels (and power) does is push up the level of the enemies. The game isn't harder, better, or more emersive. Character development isn't any better simply because there are more levels.

GW has done things other MMOs did not. Now a lot of that may stem from the fact that the final goal was PvP fun, but regardless it is a GOOD thing. There are plenty of MMOs out there with lvl grind. If people want that they should be playing that. Those who are here complaining GW should have 100 levels and skill trees and this and that, well they are the people I fear DreamWind is right about. They are playing GW because it was a 1 time only purchase and has no Pay-by-the-month fees attached.

EagleDelta1 · Dec 08, 2008, 04:23 AM // 04:23

[QUOTE=KoleAurow 23;4389426][QUOTE=DreamWind;4389270]No...people like GW so much because of no monthly fees.

Quote:

This is why you are dumb. Dont get me wrong, the no monthly fees are awesome...But not everyone goes into a store, looking for a new game, and they say to themselves "I want a game that has no monthly fees, that's what makes a game for me"

Like other ppl have said, GW has a very unique and awesome PvP system. And other then that, well GW is unique in ways that says "Skill over happy finger" and a cool 8 skill build system.

We dont play GW for the same reason obviously...lol

First Off, ANYONE who tries to say they know why everyone else, besides themselves, is playing a game is dumb. Don't assume that just b/c there are a lot of posters here that dislike the idea of a high level cap means that's automatically what the majority of GW players play the game for. Only ppl who do official studies for Anet/NCsoft or for academic reasons have a right to make the HYPOTHESIS of what the majority is.

There is way too much "I'm right, you're wrong" going on in this thread and not enough discussion.

IMHO, ANet will end up doing something w/ GW2 that will encompass the interests of as many GW fans as they can, but they're also looking for ways to bring new players into GW2 that either didn't hear of GW or didn't find GW1 enjoyable. Let's face it guys, ANet is a business not a fan service and they are going to make a game that makes them the most money, not that makes their fans happy.

As for my opinion, I feel GW NEEDS a more complex character development system. It's nice to have something simple, but there is such a thing as too simple. As much as I'd hate to admit it - I play GW for the no monthly fee. Don't get me wrong it's fun, but when I log on I simply have too few options of thing to do - Farm, missions, PvP - that's it. Anyone know WHY the most popular MMO is WoW? B/C they achieved the simplicity that made GW fun, but didn't sacrifice complex character development. Don't misunderstand me, I don't want GW to be WoW, but WoW, like many other MMOs, have done things with their games that ANet can learn from, just like ANet has done things w/ GW that Blizzard and other companies can learn from.

DreamWind · Dec 08, 2008, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoleAurow

This is why you are dumb. Dont get me wrong, the no monthly fees are awesome...But not everyone goes into a store, looking for a new game, and they say to themselves "I want a game that has no monthly fees, that's what makes a game for me"

Like other ppl have said, GW has a very unique and awesome PvP system. And other then that, well GW is unique in ways that says "Skill over happy finger" and a cool 8 skill build system.

We dont play GW for the same reason obviously...lol

Sorry buddy but you're wrong. No monthly fees is a gigantic reason why people play this game. I'd easily argue it is the number 1 reason for people playing and mostly for people STAYING. Just look at Warhammer Online...game was populated as hell then once people's free trials ran out the game population plummeted. Guild War's population is already plummeting. Imagine how many people would still be playing Guild Wars if there was a monthly fee. Try almost zero.

And you are right about the PvP being unique and could have been big, but as we all know, PvE is the major selling point of the game nowadays, so you clearly do not know what the hell you are talking about.

Also your "skill over happy finger" comment is stupid. We all know how much the skill level of this game has gone down the shithole, and many people apparently like it (or Anet wouldn't have done it), and anybody who has played this game since the beginning knows that. Now welcome to GW2.

Bryant Again · Dec 08, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

No...people like GW so much because of no monthly fees.

The pitch is what sells the game to the players, not keeps them. And besides, what point in there is staying for a game with no monthly fee - which is no great feat, since I can count a couple thousand that feature the same thing - when your game sucks?

Having no monthly doesn't add to gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There is a perfect reason...because people like and want it.

That's actually not a good reason at all, since that was one of the chief pieces of evidence used by those pro-Ursan.

DreamWind · Dec 08, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The pitch is what sells the game to the players, not keeps them. And besides, what point in there is staying for a game with no monthly fee - which is no great feat, since I can count a couple thousand that feature the same thing - when your game sucks?

Having no monthly doesn't add to gameplay.

I agree that having no monthly fee doesn't add to gameplay (hell some would argue it takes away from gameplay), but it absolutely keeps players. The ability for people to pick up and play whenever forever is a keeper. You also can't compare no monthly fee Guild Wars to no monthly fee other games, as Guild Wars is a high quality mmo game, and those don't usually come free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's actually not a good reason at all, since that was one of the chief pieces of evidence used by those pro-Ursan.

Yes, but we know that the majority of players don't give a crap. The majority just want to jump in game and roll monsters and experience "character development" also known as leveling. Honestly, Ursan was bad for the game, but the only reason it was nerfed was because it was TOO bad, not because the majority disliked it or even cared.

Crom The Pale · Dec 08, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

No monthly fee was the main reason I purchased GW, the lvl cap had nothing to do with it and every game I have ever played had grind of some kind.

Master Knightfall · Dec 08, 2008, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Same here No Monthy Fee is the first reason I purchased the game next to it being an online something or other. I really didn't care that it was online I could just as well have as much fun with it offline, but, I wouldn't be able to play PVP that way. So, the only real selling point of the game other than No Monthly Fee is the PVP ability and the unique skill system which really I don't like as much now as i used to because it stifles so many builds I could make if say I had 9 or 10 slots. Even Magic the Gathering has more cards you can play per battle and this game is patterned after that type of game in the skills used.

Traveller · Dec 08, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

OT: No monthly fees and realistic graphics were the main reasons I went for GW. I also liked the idea that you wouldn't have to grind months to be competitive with others.

Bryant Again · Dec 08, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I agree that having no monthly fee doesn't add to gameplay (hell some would argue it takes away from gameplay), but it absolutely keeps players. The ability for people to pick up and play whenever forever is a keeper. You also can't compare no monthly fee Guild Wars to no monthly fee other games, as Guild Wars is a high quality mmo game, and those don't usually come free.

Since when did GW become "high quality" for you?

When looked at as it is, GW's model isn't terribly groundbreaking. Multiplayer RPG's (not MMO's) have existed for years. I find it interesting when people say "you can pick up and play whenever you feel like!" as if it's something revolutionary in the gaming industry (I've been doing it since I picked up Mario, thanks). But it's when the add they phrase "...as opposed to WoW/EQ/genericMMO" at the end that pisses me off, since that's how all the expectations and misconceptions roll right in.

The only things that set GW apart from other free-to-play games is its PvP, the fact that it's online only, and it's wonderful optimization. The fact that all of it's expansion packs are stand-alone is also rather uncommon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yes, but we know that the majority of players don't give a crap. The majority just want to jump in game and roll monsters and experience "character development" also known as leveling. Honestly, Ursan was bad for the game, but the only reason it was nerfed was because it was TOO bad, not because the majority disliked it or even cared.

You're still missing the point. "People like and want it" is nearly just as shitless as the "don't like, don't use" argument, except much more drastic in this scenario because it's concerning the leveling process (something that affects the *entire* playerbase). Like DL;DU it can be used to defend god mode, cheat codes, and any other overpowered facet you can imagine.

Either way, I think you're going to have a hard time finding many being all for grind. It is indeed a very subjective term, but I don't know of anyone who'd want their time to be needlessly drawn out.

As I stated earlier, the only gain from adding grind to your games is to milk out the players' subscription fees as much as they can. It's "understandable" in p2p MMO's because it's an effective way to make more money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

...Even Magic the Gathering has more cards you can play per battle and this game is patterned after that type of game in the skills used.

The most obvious reasoning for this "cap" on the number of skills you can bring is easily compensated by the near hundreds of other variables that can take place in a real-time battlefield, something M:TG doesn't have to take into consideration.

Stop The Storm · Dec 08, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

id like to see a higher level cap, dont mind which, but i get no sense of accomplishment for getting to level 20. once im there, thats it, done. everything in the game you need to be level 20 pretty much.

in GW2 id like to see maybe a level 50 skill cap, with various things opening up as you progress, dungeons, armour etc

KoleAurow 23 · Dec 08, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Sorry buddy but you're wrong. No monthly fees is a gigantic reason why people play this game. I'd easily argue it is the number 1 reason for people playing and mostly for people STAYING. Just look at Warhammer Online...game was populated as hell then once people's free trials ran out the game population plummeted. Guild War's population is already plummeting. Imagine how many people would still be playing Guild Wars if there was a monthly fee. Try almost zero.

And you are right about the PvP being unique and could have been big, but as we all know, PvE is the major selling point of the game nowadays, so you clearly do not know what the hell you are talking about.

Also your "skill over happy finger" comment is stupid. We all know how much the skill level of this game has gone down the shithole, and many people apparently like it (or Anet wouldn't have done it), and anybody who has played this game since the beginning knows that. Now welcome to GW2.

lol, my "skill over happy finger" comment was not stupid. In a game like WoW, ppl find the most effective WAY (singular) to hit your skils for a mage, and whoever hits first wins in a dual. And you are right, the skill required has gone down. But still the game IS "skill over happy finger"

And did I say PvP was the selling point? Nope, I didnt. So now you are just ranting about what I did not even say to try to prove your point.

Lets get back to what this thread is about please. It WAS going well...
Dont want it to get closed.

Thanks

Crom The Pale · Dec 08, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

GW has changed a great deal from when it first came out. At its release point most people were only lvl 15-18 when they reached the desert and ascended.

In fact none of Prophicies required you to be lvl 20, even FoW or UW were accessable to characters of lower levels.

Later on they added the need to be ascended and lvl 20 to enter Elite Zones. Most games of this nature seam to use the level system as a means of limiting the players access to content. ei. you must be lvl X in order to use certain weapons or open certain doors.

That is one aspect of leveling that I wouldn't object to seeing in GW2, as long as its done correctly. It would have been much nicer if they had restricted entry into Droknar's Forge to level 15+ chars as a means of stopping the run rather than dump a tonne of ubber foes along the route.

Master Knightfall · Dec 09, 2008, 05:49 AM // 05:49

I agree with that and always have said something should have been done by level about being able to wear max gear from Droks. Level 16+ would have been my choice since people were also doing the run to Droks when they got to Yaks bend pvp arena. But that's another discussion and arguement. Even in Nightfall they still allow the damn bypassing of the armor content and you can get a lift to the docks to get your max level armor at level 1 or 2 in Kamadan. The only chapter that helped to prevent this was Factions which had the gate locks to just about every extention of the game you had to do before you could move onto the next part of the story or area. I would like to see that come back myself. By letting all these players bypass the content to max gear it takes away from the resources that could have been sold to players to buy their mid game/level gear around Lions Arch and Maguuma Jungle area and also force them to fight those areas/missions with the armor/gear designed for those levels/areas. Most people could plow through the early missions from Ascalon to Maguuma Jungle and even to the desert area with little or no challenge at all wearing their droks armor and having elite skills from the surrounding area before they should have.

For me that will be another reason to buy or not to buy GW2. If they allow running through the content as they have in Prophecies and Nightfall I'm just not going to buy it because if pretty much forces everyone to run the content if they want to stay up with everyone in the loot and value content of the game. If I don't run it an others do they will be to the high end content long before i will and be farming and making more profits off of it long before I will as well. By the time I get there everything will have flooded the market and my drops will be worthless.

Crom The Pale · Dec 09, 2008, 11:45 AM // 11:45

I would rather have Armor limited by a players level than locked doors all over the place as exploring is a big plus for me when it comes to enjoying the game.